Murena is in the business of deGoogling Android smartphones in the name of privacy. The French/European firm has been doing this for around five years, as We recently got our hands on a Fairphone 4 running Murena's tracker-blocking /e/OS. Our curiosity was piqued to see an alternative OS running on alt hardware. Step in for a closer look...
That’s valid. In theory, because you’re downloading open source on there, you could audit the apps you download, but don’t know anyone who does that unless it’s their job.
This is what really, really pissed me off about the iPhone. When it launched and they gave it a desktop-class web browser engine and told people they were going all-in in PWAs (though I don’t think the term existed at the time). Then v2 came out and they went sike! native apps, must be developed on our PCs, must be distributed by us, you must pay us to be allowed to develop, we take a cut of your income, and we’re going to cripple the PWA engine to make universal, open apps all but unusable.
Yes, if the underlying engine is designed to support it. There are standard web APIs for accelerated graphics, compute, offline storage, Bluetooth, push notification, environmental sensors, phone book access, camera, local storage access, and so on… A decent PWA is indistinguishable from a native app.
Depends on the PWA, if they have the manifest setup properly it should give the option by itself and even the add to desktop button should change to install the app, but very few sites support it (among the ones I use)
Can only answer for myself but F-Droid is limited, Aurora is still the Play Store, and Amazon is… depending on your view… worse than the Play Store itself. A shame the Play Store is the default.
Can you elaborate on “limited”? Surely that is what we want. One of the problems with the Play store is certainly not that it does not have a wide enough selection, but rather that it is full of harmful, hostile, dangerous, exploitive software. Any solution to that problem is necessarily going to limit (or one might prefer to say curate) its contents. That is exactly why I use F-Droid. It is limited to software that is not trying to hurt me.
I guess F-Droid is limited in the sense of low user awareness? Similar to lemmy in the sense that its just not that popular atm, but maybe its gaining popularity?
Limited as in, lacks a fair number of apps that many people (myself included) need to be able to function as professionals. I’m not sure how much safer F-Droid is in theory, as the vetting process for apps seems to be pretty nonexistent. For each app, I have to either research or trust. That’s fine for me, but trying to explain how to handle that to tech-unsavvy people is a bridge too far.
“Just research the publisher or programmer and review the code, mom!” Yeah, not going to work.
Those products that you “need” to function as professionals are never going to be available in a way that does not exploit you and put you at risk. You’re always going to be trapped with the incumbent marketplace’s shitty practices until you take steps to meet those needs in some other way.
You do not have to personally audit every application you use. After all, you DON’T audit closed applications, and neither does anyone else. At least with an application with code available under a public license, other people have the ability to review it and raise concerns. I can’t see how you can cast that as a disadvantage, just because you don’t personally want to audit the software yourself.
Personally, I’m not comfortable predicating my very livelihood on closed, commercial software that somebody else owns and leverages with the specific intention of exploiting me. That sounds like fucking madness to me.
That fine; now tell the companies you work with that to work with you that they have to retrain their tens of thousands of employees to use those other applications, apps that lack critical functionality they rely on. Whether you like it or not, there are business critical applications that the apps on F-Droid cannot currently replace. Pretending that F-Droid offers everything everyone needs is not helpful to moving toward a better way; it’s akin to those guys who scream “USE LINUX” every time someone has an issue with a Windows application. Me, I love Linux… but I also realize that for the businesses I work with, Linux as a desktop solution isn’t going to sell.
My apps are around 5% Google Play (paid apps from indie developers unavailable on other platforms, using a throwaway account) 25% F-Droid, 25% direct APK, and 45% Aurora. As apps I need join F-Droid, I switch… but many just don’t see the value.
Can I get my banking app on F-Droid? How about my home security system app? How about a dozen other apps that I want or need, and can’t be replaced by loading a website in Firefox?
This is entirely on the companies. There’s no technical reason or requirement for this happening.
Fdroid works great and is the most likely thing to be adopted, in my opinion. It’s easy enough for anyone to spin up their own fdroid server and distribute their own app.
If you’re wanting to use a new store, you’re going to have to wade through the growing pains of adoption. It’s just a fact of life.
Wait, I assume if you install a banking app through Aurora it still works? Totally fair if that doesn’t work for your needs (you kinda need a google account, even if a blank one, to have it work right now) but I assume installing apps through it doesn’t limit them or make them less functional for having been installed through Aurora?
Sort of. On GrapheneOS a fair number of banking apps fail because GrapheneOS sandboxes Aurora, but on a regular Android install I think they work? That is, assuming that you can get Aurora to load in the first place.
There are. But are the banking apps people use to manage their money on F-Droid? Can I download PayPal on F-Droid? Are there any cash transfer apps that have enough users and enough support to be useful?
I have keys on my keyring, but if those keys don’t open the doors you need to open… how useful are they to you?
You can build an alternative app store if you want. Amazon did, Huawei did, but nobody wants to use those. Open source stores aren’t exactly popular either because they’re mostly filled with niche apps only open source enthusiasts care about.
It’s all about the value proposition. Customers don’t care about app stores unless there’s something on them that they want. The best candidates I can think of to start their own app stores are Epic Games and maybe companies like Yandex where economic restrictions threaten Google Play’s viability.
We’re talking about stock android having 3rd party app store with permissions to install apps in the background. Yes, you can install f-droid but on a stock android it can’t update apps automatically. It’s not an alternative for normal users. And as long as 3rd party stores are not used by normal users app developers will not care about publishing apps there. What needs to happen is that EU needs to force google (and apple) to allow alternative stores, some heavy weights have to support it and developers need to start publishing apps there.
Droid-ify can install apps in background (or at least without the package installer popup. The main f-droid app is still targeting too low of an android version to do it.
f-droid can install app in the background on my iode OS. It’s not a technical problem, it’s a legal issue. Google and apple don’t allow 3rd app stores preinstalled on the phones.
Thats because the fdroid extension is installed. By default it cant do that. Google added the ability for app stores that target android 12 and above to update apps that also target android 12 or above without the package installer.
We really need a compelling alternative to the Play Store, both as users and developers.
F-Droid
Yeah, I have it, but I can’t install 3/4 of the apps I use on a daily basis from there.
Wouldn’t that be the same for any other alternative? That’s what a monopoly does.
It means 3/4 of the apps you use aren’t free software which is not an issue with F-Droid.
The security model or lack of same concerns me.
That’s valid. In theory, because you’re downloading open source on there, you could audit the apps you download, but don’t know anyone who does that unless it’s their job.
My main issue is everything signed with the same key, and the way updates can go through without review.
Obviously Play store isn’t safe or wonderful, but it does have better review policies.
You can download directly from the repo with Obtainium.
That actually looks useful, particularly since github has a clearer security policy than f-droid.
I would prefer to see a wider embrace of PWAs.
This is what really, really pissed me off about the iPhone. When it launched and they gave it a desktop-class web browser engine and told people they were going all-in in PWAs (though I don’t think the term existed at the time). Then v2 came out and they went sike! native apps, must be developed on our PCs, must be distributed by us, you must pay us to be allowed to develop, we take a cut of your income, and we’re going to cripple the PWA engine to make universal, open apps all but unusable.
Dicks.
What did you really expect for the company that turned personal computer technology into a jail?
Can PWAs perform just like native apps when it comes to smoothness and optimization?
Yes, if the underlying engine is designed to support it. There are standard web APIs for accelerated graphics, compute, offline storage, Bluetooth, push notification, environmental sensors, phone book access, camera, local storage access, and so on… A decent PWA is indistinguishable from a native app.
I’d probably agree if I didn’t work as an Android developer. :-)
You can build webapps in kotlin :)
I do love Kotlin, but I work extensively with audio playback on a low level (Oboe, native) so a web app just won’t work for me.
Also, I can’t really justify rewriting my company’s entire app because I don’t like Google’s monopoly.
Is there any way of “installing” PWAs to the app drawer rather than been limited to a shortcut on the home screen?
Depends on the PWA, if they have the manifest setup properly it should give the option by itself and even the add to desktop button should change to install the app, but very few sites support it (among the ones I use)
In what ways do the existing alternatives fall short of compelling?
Can only answer for myself but F-Droid is limited, Aurora is still the Play Store, and Amazon is… depending on your view… worse than the Play Store itself. A shame the Play Store is the default.
Can you elaborate on “limited”? Surely that is what we want. One of the problems with the Play store is certainly not that it does not have a wide enough selection, but rather that it is full of harmful, hostile, dangerous, exploitive software. Any solution to that problem is necessarily going to limit (or one might prefer to say curate) its contents. That is exactly why I use F-Droid. It is limited to software that is not trying to hurt me.
I guess F-Droid is limited in the sense of low user awareness? Similar to lemmy in the sense that its just not that popular atm, but maybe its gaining popularity?
Sure, but that’s not going to be helped by making something new that’s “compelling” – which is the topic at hand
Limited as in, lacks a fair number of apps that many people (myself included) need to be able to function as professionals. I’m not sure how much safer F-Droid is in theory, as the vetting process for apps seems to be pretty nonexistent. For each app, I have to either research or trust. That’s fine for me, but trying to explain how to handle that to tech-unsavvy people is a bridge too far.
“Just research the publisher or programmer and review the code, mom!” Yeah, not going to work.
Those products that you “need” to function as professionals are never going to be available in a way that does not exploit you and put you at risk. You’re always going to be trapped with the incumbent marketplace’s shitty practices until you take steps to meet those needs in some other way.
You do not have to personally audit every application you use. After all, you DON’T audit closed applications, and neither does anyone else. At least with an application with code available under a public license, other people have the ability to review it and raise concerns. I can’t see how you can cast that as a disadvantage, just because you don’t personally want to audit the software yourself.
Personally, I’m not comfortable predicating my very livelihood on closed, commercial software that somebody else owns and leverages with the specific intention of exploiting me. That sounds like fucking madness to me.
That fine; now tell the companies you work with that to work with you that they have to retrain their tens of thousands of employees to use those other applications, apps that lack critical functionality they rely on. Whether you like it or not, there are business critical applications that the apps on F-Droid cannot currently replace. Pretending that F-Droid offers everything everyone needs is not helpful to moving toward a better way; it’s akin to those guys who scream “USE LINUX” every time someone has an issue with a Windows application. Me, I love Linux… but I also realize that for the businesses I work with, Linux as a desktop solution isn’t going to sell.
My apps are around 5% Google Play (paid apps from indie developers unavailable on other platforms, using a throwaway account) 25% F-Droid, 25% direct APK, and 45% Aurora. As apps I need join F-Droid, I switch… but many just don’t see the value.
Can I get my banking app on F-Droid? How about my home security system app? How about a dozen other apps that I want or need, and can’t be replaced by loading a website in Firefox?
This is entirely on the companies. There’s no technical reason or requirement for this happening.
Fdroid works great and is the most likely thing to be adopted, in my opinion. It’s easy enough for anyone to spin up their own fdroid server and distribute their own app.
If you’re wanting to use a new store, you’re going to have to wade through the growing pains of adoption. It’s just a fact of life.
I’m still waiting for Linux on desktop to be a big thing like I thought back in 2004. I suspect the third party app stores will be just as quick.
Wait, I assume if you install a banking app through Aurora it still works? Totally fair if that doesn’t work for your needs (you kinda need a google account, even if a blank one, to have it work right now) but I assume installing apps through it doesn’t limit them or make them less functional for having been installed through Aurora?
Works on Calyx! My banks didn’t work on Lineage through aurora. I think it only checks for a locked bootloader?
Sort of. On GrapheneOS a fair number of banking apps fail because GrapheneOS sandboxes Aurora, but on a regular Android install I think they work? That is, assuming that you can get Aurora to load in the first place.
There are in fact banking apps and home security apps on F-Droid.
Here’s the ones I looked for:
Not one of them was available on F-Droid. Care to share the ones that you know of?
There are. But are the banking apps people use to manage their money on F-Droid? Can I download PayPal on F-Droid? Are there any cash transfer apps that have enough users and enough support to be useful?
I have keys on my keyring, but if those keys don’t open the doors you need to open… how useful are they to you?
Cool! I’ll just call my bank and tell them that.
Accrescent is in early alpha, but it looks like it’s on its way to be a great, modern app store.
checked it out and it needs a lot of time to become a proper competitor
Aurora store worked well but google got their way recently
It still works for me intermittently, but yes. Google is going to Google.
It still works, you just need to search for things in the browser then open the links with Aurora
I wish someone would make a companion app that handles this automatically
I’d love to do it but I have no knowledge about kotlin. However, I’m still down if someone has a solid plan
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You can build an alternative app store if you want. Amazon did, Huawei did, but nobody wants to use those. Open source stores aren’t exactly popular either because they’re mostly filled with niche apps only open source enthusiasts care about.
It’s all about the value proposition. Customers don’t care about app stores unless there’s something on them that they want. The best candidates I can think of to start their own app stores are Epic Games and maybe companies like Yandex where economic restrictions threaten Google Play’s viability.
The only hope here is that EU will force google to allow other stores.
Since when are third party apps disallowed?
We’re talking about stock android having 3rd party app store with permissions to install apps in the background. Yes, you can install f-droid but on a stock android it can’t update apps automatically. It’s not an alternative for normal users. And as long as 3rd party stores are not used by normal users app developers will not care about publishing apps there. What needs to happen is that EU needs to force google (and apple) to allow alternative stores, some heavy weights have to support it and developers need to start publishing apps there.
Ok, I see what you mean.
Droid-ify can install apps in background (or at least without the package installer popup. The main f-droid app is still targeting too low of an android version to do it.
f-droid can install app in the background on my iode OS. It’s not a technical problem, it’s a legal issue. Google and apple don’t allow 3rd app stores preinstalled on the phones.
Thats because the fdroid extension is installed. By default it cant do that. Google added the ability for app stores that target android 12 and above to update apps that also target android 12 or above without the package installer.