EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.
OP is a three day old account. They know this, this meme is just them crying about it.
Instance know for trolling and being assholes is eventually defederated
You just don’t understand us!
Lol right? And if you even try to engage it’s constant sealioning, memeing, and dunking.
Sealioning? No, you just won’t read my 10,000 word post that is copied from someone else’s pHD.
Edit: No joke, after posting this I got this message from a Hexbear user:
I’ve read all three volumes of [Das Kapital] around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it
tell me with full seriousness that you’ve even glanced at it
Have you even read Gramsci? You really can’t disagree with anything I say until you’ve read Gramsci. Sorry, I don’t make the rules!
This is why my instance is defederated with them though. It’s just bad faith nonsense all the way down.
And you run a far-right uberconservatives instances so you have no room to talk on nonsense
I mean, it’s not a huge problem to read Marx or Gramsci before arguing about Marx or Gramsci. You don’t have to read all they wrote, of course. To form an opinion on Gadamer I don’t have to read everything he wrote.
That’s different than what I said though, which is that you can’t disagree with me without reading Gramsci. And is also typically how these authors’ names are invoked in arguments which are not about the authors themselves.
While discussing Gramsci - then they’d be obviously correct that you should be familiar with the subject to disagree or agree or anyhing.
It’s not even a good come back. It’s like saying that they’re right because they have the power of Shrek on their side
They are used to their echo chambers and high-fiving themselves. To be fair, I wouldn’t want to mess with them if Shrek was on their side.
Shrek seems pretty anti-authoritarian, so he’s automatically a lib and an enemy as far as they’re concerned.
To build on this point: I don’t get the whole “anti-echo chamber” thing and this demand we entertain said assholes. We select people to be friends we generally like and agree with. We often don’t associate with people we don’t like or disagree with. Why should our forums be some totally egalitarian social exposure? That’s literally never been the case ever. We read what we want to read. We talk to who we want to talk to. I’m not going to be guilted into listening to some jerk who thinks gay people shouldn’t marry and belong in hell. I don’t want to share a beer with them, I would never invite them to dinner in my home, so why should I have to deal with them living rent free in my mind because I saw some ignorant post of theirs and they called someone a slur? Hell, why should I be forced by some arbitrary, inconsistent moral code to deal with people who are simply disruptive/obnoxious?
I have plenty of work colleagues and family I disagree with, I read sources I don’t always love. I get plenty of exposure to other ways of thinking and ideas, at least no less than anyone else does. Do I think people can go too far and literally only surround themselves with “yes men” socially? Sure. But come on. How many of us actually spend equal time with people we both agree and disagree ideologically with?
The only people whining about defederating either don’t understand what it is or are butthurt because people are collectively showing them the door, and there is little they can do about it. 
Yeah it’s just bad faith. They just want access to every space so accuse those that shut their doors on them of being an echo chamber.
Yeah you’re right. It’s not a binary choice between echo chamber and non-echo chamber. It’s just an open community where trolling antisocial behaviour is discouraged. If admins of an instance are encouraging antisocial behaviour then the only solution is to defederate.
You mean hexbear, kbin, and lemmygrad?
I hope so.
What’s wrong with kbin?
Yeah who defederated kbin?
You might wish to be aware that your instance’s top-level domain was chosen because ML stands for “Marxism-Leninism”, and that the main admin of lemmy.ml has a photo of Mao as his profile banner. So you’re probably going to have a hard time convincing your instance’s admins to defederate from Hexbear and Lemmygrad, all things considered.
Edit: While .ml is often used as a free TLD, lemmy.ml paid for that domain. Whether the use of the .ml TLD was then a deliberate reference to Dessalines’ outspoken political views is… evidently less certain than I thought. This was just a claim that I heard, it seemed right, I took it as fact, I repeated it here, I’m sorry. That was irresponsible.
Hexbear is known for trolling, regardless of their political stance, unless there is a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow.
I’m just saying that if one wishes to be defederated from Hexbear, then one should migrate off of lemmy.ml first. The admins of that instance are not going to be open to defederating Hexbear.
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
Also, regarding “a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow” — basically ever since I first started seeing this sort of stuff coming from Hexbear in the brief time when they federated with Blåhaj Lemmy, I thought of stuff like pig poop balls in kind of the same way as, like, the climate/vegan activists who throw soup cans at paintings or pour milk jugs in stores or trespass F1 races or break fuel pumps or so forth. A lot of people express a lot of anger and frustration and annoyance at these sorts of things and say “How can these activists be so stupid‽ Don’t they know that this hurts support for their cause‽”, but… ehhhh, being goddamn annoying as all Hell is honestly a more effective form of political action than a lot of people consciously believe it to be. The video essayist Ponderful once said about this,
People criticize actions like milk pours and soup…chucks? Because it “gives the right something to criticize”…but it seems like that’s the point! And at the same time, it makes other climate activists look extremely reasonable and “good, actually” in comparison! If pouring some milk on the ground will mean that Daily Mail readers might hear some messages about how messed-up the dairy industry is, and then also maybe even consider old enemies like our Greta as good in comparison, then…yay! Yay, I say! And if it makes the public look kinder upon activists who actually target oil infrastructure, in comparison to what they see as random and annoying publicity stunts, then f*ck!gn ay!
Whether all of this applies in the case of Hexbear is something that people can argue about — it feels like kind of a silly comparison given that Lemmy is just an obscure social media platform, which doesn’t exactly seem like the type of place where meaningful praxis can happen… But it’s at least a thought that we can keep in mind. Hexbear has certainly succeeded in getting people on Lemmy talking and thinking about them and their beliefs, pushing the Overton window leftwards — especially if other, less annoying leftists look “good in comparison”. I’m kind of reminded of my own path towards leftism, honestly: I’d certainly been annoyed by communist interlocutors plenty of times over the years, but I think that without that annoyance, I probably wouldn’t agree with those selfsame interlocutors on so much today. That was just one of the many tactics that collectively led me down that path.
I don’t think that this is necessarily Hexbear’s intentional strategy in the same way as those aforementioned climate/vegan activists, but nevertheless, this is at least my spitball of a material analysis of why Pig Poop Balls actually does advance the cause. This is just a little advocacy for the devil, as it were.
ml was most likely chosen because freenom was giving ml (mali) tld away for free.
That’s why fmhy chose the .ml, but lemmygrad and lemmy paid for theirs, which is why they can still use it while fmhy.ml went tits up.
This does not get more true if you guys repeat it over and over again. This is just nonsense.
.ml domains are named for the country code of Mali, and are used because they are free to register
Right. If I disagree with someone, I downvote. If people are being an asshole, it’s different.
Generally the assholes also think it’s because people just disagree.
Even radical left liberals are assholes.
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You asked a question and answered it next sentence!
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Torrentfreak is your best source.
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Why? Torrentfreak is a news site and does not promote methods of piracy.
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neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
Oh hey, look, it’s the same thought terminating argument that the alt-right uses to whitewash Nazis!
Hey look its the same thought terminating argument tankies use when they want to bring about purges for “wrong think”.
It’s so cute when one of you is obviously just pulling out whatever scary Orwell words you remember from 8th grade english class
The funniest part is when two instances federate, but the userbases of both instances want to defederate with each other immediately afterwards lol.
personally i want to kiss the liberals with tongue, while they call me a tankie
I want to smooch every person who calls me a liberal
Funny how one instance is the one everyone wants to defederate from.
people hate getting called out for their terrible opinions
Lol is that why hexbear is defederating from so many instances?
They hate us for being right
Any instance not arguing in good faith gets removed normally.
Why so much drama over fed or defed, just change instances if you don’t agree with your admin
I think where that falls down is if a big community is in X instance, the instance admins have control over that instance
Doesn’t matter what instance you switch to if the communities you participate in are under that instance’s control
Not saying that’s a huge problem yet but it could turn into one and then we get powermods all over again
When everyone you meet is an asshole, you are probably the real asshole.
Funny how this works with social media as well.
Says person calling people assholes.
“you say you don’t like intolerance and yet that sounds like intolerance to me”
*smug face*
Currently. Of course in the past it was exploding heads for being Nazis, Lemmygrad for being insufferable tankies, then Burggit for lolicon, now hexbear for being insufferable tankies.
Heck I think Lemmygrad is more tolerable than Hexbear, by a lot.
Do they allow downvotes? Hexbear doesn’t which means everything they disagree with gets a reply with a handful of large emoji.
They do. See https://lemmygrad.ml and see how almost every post has some downvotes. IMO this does make the posting culture there better.
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We understand what we are.
Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
Right… So thinking that the Tzar’s invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that’s what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. “Literal Nazi” isn’t some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances – them’s the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It’s not mere “differing opinions” when one person’s opinion is “Holodomor didn’t happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it” or “Holocaust didn’t happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it” or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.
I’ve been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I’ve blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don’t turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I’ve found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don’t like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.
This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).
Once an entire instance is gone though… defederate like there’s no tomorrow.
HiTlEr WaSn’T aLl BaD
Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
Only a good Hitler with a gun can stop a bad Hitler doing genocide.
Well, the Red Army did that.
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He didn’t even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa… but the Allies wouldn’t let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn’t even his idea, it was Reinhardt’s! He just signed it…
(do I put an /s? it’s historically correct…)
There is a block button. You don’t have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.
You are advocating for nazis. Fuck off.
Yes, let’s give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It’s entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s
Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.
I don’t even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn’t mean I agree with you.
What, is it only Nazism if it’s from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it’s just Sparkling Fascism?
Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.
The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?
Like…from the Brandenburger Tor then?
I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook.this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook
SelfAwareWolves material right here.
Wait… What? So I’m a Nazi or something who didn’t realize what they are because I told you that “the Reichstag region” is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.
Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That’ll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That’s exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.
De-federating so you don’t see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it’s not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.
Exploding-heads no longer exists because they got defederated by everyone
On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing “safe spaces” for bigots:
Working from over 100M Reddit posts and comments, we generate hate speech lexicons to examine variations in hate speech usage via causal inference methods. We find that the ban worked for Reddit.
More accounts than expected discontinued using the site; those that stayed drastically decreased their hate speech usage—by at least 80%. Though many subreddits saw an influx of r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown “migrants,” those subreddits saw no significant changes in hate speech usage.
In other words, other subreddits did not inherit the problem.
Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.
Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn’t make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.
That’s exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.
Why is it every instance admin’s responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?
Well it isn’t, nothing does, and they shouldn’t. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.
“We shouldn’t have echo chambers” is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.
Grow the fuck up and accept the fact you’re not wanted. Instance admins are allowed to associate with who they want. You are not owed anyone else’s time and attention simply because you exist.
Also, has anybody reported this guy yet?
every time someone says something stupid
Here’s a philosophical topic called emergence. Every “one” thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.
I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There’s been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That’s the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don’t because they don’t want to suck each other’s dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with
talk.*Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.
defederate to maintain your very special echo chamber
defederate to stop sh.tjust.works chuds from harassing your comrades in DMs with violent, transphobic and ableist attacksother way around, buddy
Nazis do not deserve to live. I don’t see the problem.
Too right on that one…
except you can’t just label everyone you don’t like a nazi.
Are you saying Nazis shouldn’t be killed?
If you’re pulling the trigger on Nazis I hope you never guess wrong
fuck 'em
But! The problem comes from labelling everyone a nazi because they disagree with you. I’ve been called a nazi many times by tankies and even other users. Do you think I should be killed?
What did we do?
i already understand them and i dont give a fuck about discussing in an online forum
Yeah, let’s try to understand child abuse images /s
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don’t want to be stabbed at all.
Let’s compromise and I stab you 4 times.
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
Wtf? Is that where your brain goes? Like genuinely, seek help.
lol its this shit every time libs see a legitimate left stance. im assuming you’ve seen the sh.itjust.works defed post. its like 5 super vocal users having a conniption fit that there are communists on the internet
Fascists and child porn spammers may have rights somewhere, but not in my world.
I don’t think people know what fascist means in this thread.
True but.
It reminds me of this discussion I had on Reddit with a person who said it was okay to punch a Nazi, just like that. Walk up to them l, punch.
I start with that Nazi’s don’t really exist, and if someone has intolerant ideas them maybe it’s better to talk them out of those ideas instead of reinforcing them.
This discussion took a few messages until it ended with this person calling me a Nazi and threateni to punch me if he ever saw me, just and only because o disagreed with unjustified violence against intolerant people
This person was just as intolerant as a Nazi themselves and didn’t even realize it.
This person was just as intolerant as a Nazi themselves and didn’t even realize it.
No they weren’t, this is what Popper defines as intolerance of the second degree. Taken from the German wiki page because this aspect is better explained there than in the English version (translated with deepl):
In intolerant people, Popper distinguished two categories:
-
intolerance of the first degree: intolerant of a person’s customs because they are foreign.
-
intolerance of the second degree: intolerant of a person’s customs because they are intolerant and dangerous.
Popper therefore rejected universal tolerance:
“Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unrestricted tolerance leads with necessity to the disappearance of tolerance. For if we extend unrestricted tolerance even to the intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant social order against the onslaughts of intolerance, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them.”
However, since we as human beings are not capable of knowing the true motives of our counterparts, a fundamental, unsolvable problem now arises: It is difficult for an outsider to distinguish whether a person who expresses intolerance belongs to the first or second degree.
In other words the intolerance against Nazis is justified because they are the ones being intolerant in the first place, and sometimes this is the only way to fight them on that.
I’ll grant that this is disregarding your premise of Nazis not existing, but to be quite honest if I may, that’s a pretty stupid premise. The Nazis did exist, they were the poster child for intolerance of the first degree, and their ideology is far from being as dead as they are.
I get your point and Im not saying we should simply allow neo-Nazi’s to say and do what they want. I’m saying that assaulting them without any other reason but then “being” a neo-Nazi is bad.
First off, people saying “punch a Nazi!” are the same kind of people nthst happily call you a Nazi the second you disagree with them on anything. So with that, their “punch a Nazi” actually means “punch anybody disagreeing with me”. People like that are closer to neo-Nazi’s than they think, chekc horseshoe theory.
Second: I’d rather talk and reason with someone who is full of hate than pushing then further and deeper into their hatred. These people will still be around tomorrow. They’ll still be in our stores, or schools, our bars… I want these people to hate lessz not more the vast majority of them are just followers going with shit they got from Facebook, some personal bad experiences, shit they learned from their parents, etc. It’s not easy to talk with them, make them understand that hey have warped view of the world, but if at the end of the conversation they see even a tiny about of light, it was worth it.
Third: I’ve talked with too many people saying anything like “punch a Nazi” who then went on to claim that I was a Nazi bevaut I disagreed with them. It’s kind of point one but it bares repeating: violence is bad.
I agree that attempts at enlightenment should always be the default option. Not least because of the passage I purposely quoted along, that separating first and second degree of intolerance is an intractable problem.
I get your point that being called a Nazi while you are not isn’t fun. This rhetorical move is known as a “Totschlagargument” in Germany by the way (literally translated: manslaughter argument, i.e. it kills discussion). Maybe don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater though, and keep your only way of effectively resisting against them, abhorrent though it may be.
Case in point…
the vast majority of them are just followers going with shit they got from Facebook, some personal bad experiences, shit they learned from their parents, etc. It’s not easy to talk with them, make them understand that hey have warped view of the world
These sentences are literally applicable to historical Nazis, just replace Facebook with pamphlets and radio. And this is the sense in which I mean that their ideology is far from dead, there are plenty of people that espouse fascism in general or Nazism (as in national socialism) specifically today. They all have their subjective reasons and none of them matter in the end, because their conclusion is fascism, an inherently inhumane ideology.
make them understand that hey have warped view of the world, but if at the end of the conversation they see even a tiny about of light, it was worth it.
So what if they don’t, if they remain blind in the face of the light that is humanism? If they remain intolerant even after being confronted with the error of their ways? I’d argue, and you would seem to agree, that violence is the only real option left in that case, because the other option is surrendering society to them and their misguided ideology. These people can vote, Hitler was elected by people such as this. Some of them are in positions of power right now.
So to extend your conclusion: Violence is bad, but it is also necessary sometimes. As a last resort, yes, but still.
Veering off to what you said earlier and expanded on in a sibling comment:
Nazi’s don’t exist. They haven’t existed for about 80 years now. What do exist are people with varying degrees of being a racist cunt.
Sorry, but this is just wrong. Denazification in Germany stopped pretty much with the upper echelons being brought to justice in the Nuremberg trials. Both German states had a metric shit-ton of actual Nazi war criminals in their administration, because they needed administrators due to the cold war shifting geopolitical priorities, and they had to use the ones available. There was a criminal trial against a former concentration camp secretary happening last year (because there is no statute of limitations on genocide, she was 17 at the time apparently), although given her age and health it might indeed have been the last one of those. But over the decades the career of quite a lot of high-ranking German officials stumbled upon their past as Nazis, on either side of the iron curtain. They weren’t magically exterminated on victory day, quite the opposite actually, many found their way into the power structures of the victors, sometimes poisoning them from within.
And there are literal Nazis in the current generations too, here in Germany as well as abroad. People who espouse Mein Kampf and all that kind of shit. Who say Hitler was right. Granted, the general movement mostly mutated into a white supremacy idea rather than the “Arian” (i.e. German) people being the master race, so maybe not all of them are Nazis in the strictest sense of the word, “Nazi Classic” if you will; But the ideology is there, it’s fascist, and many of them worship actual fucking Nazis and follow their ideals.
And while all of those people already deserve to be fucking punched just by virtue of being whatever somewhat coherent definition of Nazi you may apply, for many of them it’s also the only recourse you have, because words will simply not convince them.
So in conclusion “punch a Nazi” is a valid statement of political discourse in my opinion, as long as it uses an appropriate definition of what a Nazi is (i.e. a fascist, racist, national socialist, etc. pp.). Notwithstanding the fact that you were apparently mislabelled as one in some online discussion.
Nazi’s exist as much as roman legionaries exist. The Roman Empire is gone and so is Nazi Germany. That somebody would love to be one is a different thing. I’d love to be a samurai but those too no longer exists. Slapping a label on it doesn’t change that. I can dress up and play one but that’s not the same. There are neo-Nazi’s out there for sure, wannabees. There are no Nazi’s.
Having said that.
I’ve spend quite some time arguing with people that punching a Nazi is bad for a long list of reasons. I suddenly get the idea that I’d love to see any of you walk up to a group of neo Nazi’s and punch one of them. Let’s see if you still think it’s such a get idea. I feel like a lot of you are armchair heroes, sorry.
But to the point: we live in a civil society. We have a justice system. You punch a Neo Nazi and it’s assault and battery and depending on injuries you likely will go to jail. Congrats, you made a neo nazi a victim and yourself a violent criminal. Great work.
Stop with the dumb slogans. Everybody knows that Nazi’s were bad and “punch a Nazi” only leads to assholes calling others they don’t like Nazi’s.
Okay, thoughtful argument but still…
Who gets to decide when to use violence then? For what reason? When is it okay and when is it not? What is the line? And aren’t you sweet talking vigilantism here? Because you are.
We both literally are saying that violence is okay in certain cases. I say it’s okay when someone attacks me. I defend myself with violence because there literally is no other option.
You say it’s okay when people have opinions that you disagree with. Granted, those options are really very shitty opinions, but they’re that: opinions. This person you’ll be punching hasn’t hit you, hasn’t attacked you. He said or displayed things you don’t like.
So where is the line? You can punch him if he displays a swastika? How about me displayjng a swastika, you punch me and oops, it’s a religious symbol from India…
Who gets to decide who to punch? WHO?
this is why we have a legal system and this is why we don’t live in an anarchy. We live in a civilized society.
You. Do. Not. Punch. People. It doesn’t matter if they got shit opinions or not.
Lastly, if you still disagree, then go out and punch a Neo Nazi. Heck, kill one, must feel good!
Then you get arrested and a judge (and depending on the country, jury of your peers) will throw your ass in jail because you are a criminal.
Congrats, you made a neo nazi a victim and yourself a criminal.
Okay, thoughtful argument but still…
Well thanks, however this compliment seems a bit like a poisoned chalice considering the rest of your replies.
Who gets to decide when to use violence then? For what reason? When is it okay and when is it not? What is the line?
We have been through this, the line is that it has to be a last resort. FYI, this concept is literally enshrined in our constitution:
Article 20
[…]
(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.You say it’s okay when people have opinions that you disagree with. Granted, those options are really very shitty opinions, but they’re that: opinions. This person you’ll be punching hasn’t hit you, hasn’t attacked you. He said or displayed things you don’t like.
No, I say it’s okay when people have opinions that are a clear and present danger to a tolerant society. Again, we have been over this, it’s know as the paradox of tolerance. What these people do is attack civil society by abusing its rules, and you seem to propose we let them without keeping violence as a last resort, except for immediate self-defence of your person. Saying for example that all Jews or Muslims should be killed or that refugees deserve no asylum is technically an opinion, but it is also an attack on human rights and civil society. And you should stand up to that, if you deem it necessary with violence.
And yes, answering intolerance with intolerance seems like circular logic, because it is. That’s why it’s called a paradox. But IMHO you should consider that we are talking about something where our language, also a system of circular logic by the way, breaks down.
So where is the line? You can punch him if he displays a swastika?
Well this one is easy in Germany at least, because it’s literally illegal. I’ll report them to police and they will get up to three years in prison for it pursuant to § 86a of the criminal code (display of anti-constitutional symbols).
How about me displayjng a swastika, you punch me and oops, it’s a religious symbol from India…
Those are usually turned the other way and not displayed at a 45° angle. Nazi iconography is in most cases clearly distinguishable from Hindu and Shinto iconography, and if it’s not you can ask first. I will say however that when you claim to display an Asian religious symbol while being white, having a shaved head, wearing a bomber jacket and jump boots, I’m not inclined to believe you.
Doesn’t matter for my locale though, people here usually chose to just not display it outside of temples to avoid this obvious misunderstanding.
Who gets to decide who to punch? WHO?
The one doing the punching. If it was justified will be decided by the courts, as you said. And yeah, unless you have a very good reason you will probably be convicted of assault, since the state claims a monopoly on violence. However some would argue, including me, that sometimes the only way to defend the existence of civil society lies outside its rules. It’s called civil disobedience.
Nazi’s exist as much as roman legionaries exist. The Roman Empire is gone and so is Nazi Germany. That somebody would love to be one is a different thing. I’d love to be a samurai but those too no longer exists. Slapping a label on it doesn’t change that. I can dress up and play one but that’s not the same. There are neo-Nazi’s out there for sure, wannabees. There are no Nazi’s.
Yeah ok, first off the time frame and circumstances are a little different here. The Roman Empire and the samurai caste have been gone a bit longer than Nazi Germany. Every single member of those organisations is long dead. This is not the case for Nazis, and they had ample opportunity to pass on their ideology to later generations, which they did. There aren’t, to my knowledge, any large groups of people self-identifying as Roman legionaries or samurai, except for LARPing purposes. There are however a lot of them seriously self-identifying as Nazis. I don’t see what you or I would gain by denying that they are.
Secondly, to classify them as neo-Nazis instead of actual Nazis, and maintaining that there is a relevant difference in that regarding their level of intolerance towards other groups is bonkers. In context, i.e. whether they present a clear and present danger to civil society, it’s a distinction without a difference. And if you want to hold on to this ridiculous premise this entire discussion is kind of pointless.
You seem to be of the persuasion that liberal democracies aren’t endangered by fascism or other forms of totalitarianism anymore, I fail to see why that would be the case. On the contrary, history teaches us that this is a constant danger. There is a reason the principle of defensive democracy was made into law by a lot of nations after the second world war.
Stop with the dumb slogans. Everybody knows that Nazi’s were bad and “punch a Nazi” only leads to assholes calling others they don’t like Nazi’s.
It also leads to Nazis being punched. I don’t think we will reach agreement on this, so thanks for the - mostly - respectful discussion. At the risk of being accused of using dumb slogans again, I’ll leave you with a quote from a German pastor who was put into the concentration camps for his believes:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
— Martin Niemöller
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You ever convert a Nazi with words? You certainly haven’t convinced me that a Nazi puncher and a Nazi are the same.
Nazi’s don’t exist. They haven’t existed for about 80 years now. What do exist are people with varying degrees of being a racist cunt.
Yu can either piss them off and push them deeper or talk with them and pull them out. Even if you only pull them up a little, it’s an improvement
These people are still going to be here. You punch them, what does it solve? Tomorrow he or she is still out there, probably even more angry and convinced they’re right.
I know that reasoning is much, much harder to do but it’s also much more rewarding.
Also, just don’t be a dick. If you punch someone simply for saying that he likes what Nazi’s did you’re literally the wrong one. He’s using stupid words, you’re being violent. Any judge will throw your ass in jail, not the wannabe Nazi, and he’d be right.
Again, we still need to love with these people. They’re still in your streets, in our stores, in our bars, in our schools. Do you want to push them further and further until they break, or do you want them to understand and learn and get better?
Risking to fall for a troll here… Nazis very much exist. There might be the term neonazis to distinguish them, but lets face it. The neonazis are identical in their ideology, political means (threats, violence, murder), demeanor and even in appeal they try to be as close to the original as possible.
For the second part. Do you think a Nazi will discuss openly with you? No they would murder you in place, if you dont follow their ideology, or heck even if they just think you looked at them funny. Giving them space in public and letting them influence public space is affirming their positions and supporting their means to influence society. That is where the “punch a Nazi” is coming from. They need to be denied public space and public power. That is also where some realise they are not in the right, because the public is not agreeing with them and not secretly supporting them, which is a cornerstone of their belief system.
Not a troll, and thank you for your comment.
Let me try to clarify a few of my points.
First off, what is the point? What is it that you’re trying to do with assault? And it IS assault and battery if you “punch a Nazi”. I’m obviously not talking about self defense after you were attacked, I’m talking about you taking initiative. What is your goal? Revenge? Killing him? Getting rid of the enemy?
Then I have a problem with “punch a Nazi” because I’m against violence unless there is no other choice. You either defend yourself against direct and literal violence or you don’t use violence.
Then I have a problem with punch a Nazi because way too many people say that, and in the same breath will continue with calling you a Nazi because you disagree with them. People like that are just as scary as those that literally would want to be a Nazi.
Then there is the Nazi thing. Just like there are no samurai and Roman legionaries anymore, there aren’t any Nazi’s anymore. There are neo-Nazi’s, wannabees, but Nazi’s don’t exist anymore. Words matter.
Then there is the thing that these neo-Nazi groups, like all similar groups, have a few scary leaders and mostly disillusioned followers. These are mostly people that are angry or disillusioned with whatever and many times are one or two conversations away from “seeing light”. They may say a lot of shit but really aren’t that deep in there. Punching them might actually work counter productive and just push them further down a bad path.
Then finally there is the point that if we want to live in a just society, that we need to use the justice system, not a vigilante system. Again, if you’re playing judge jury and executioner yourself then you’re possibly worse than them.
Then finally there is the point that if you “punch a Nazi” YOU are committing assault and battery, not “the Nazi” and a judge and jury of your peers will toss your sorry ass on jail, not “the Nazi”. You would put you as the bad guy, making a neo nazi the good guy. Don’t make neonnazis the good guy.
So no, I’m not trolling here, I’m dead serious. “Punch a Nazi” is a bad thing for a long list of reasons, just don’t do it.
No they would murder you in place, if you dont follow their ideology, or heck even if they just think you looked at them funny.
I think you have a rather warped image of reality. Sure, there are a few very disturbing types out there, but they don’t need neonnazis idioligy to murder you. Most neo-Nazi’s are a lot of bark, very little bite. They’re guys who also have families at home who (kinda like you) have a warped sense of reality and they’d be much more helped with a dose of reality and reason than violence…
Nur zur Info, du kannst auf Lemmy Bilder direkt einbinden mit folgender Markdown-Syntax:
Man beachte das
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Isn’t dbzer0 defederated from a bunch? That kinda sucks.
this but unironically. please defederate from us
Death to America
Defederation is becoming the Lemmy meme.
I think being on lemmy does not in any way oblige a user to listen to everyone all the time. A lot of people will just come here for a good time. And for the freedom of speech activists: freedom of speech also involves other peoples freedom not to want to listen.
Moreover, I think most people who want to defederate with certain instances don’t necessarily have a problem with different world views, but have a problem with the tone being set by a small percentage of the users of said instances. Unfortunately, only a small percentage is needed to create a general vibe.
I hope it will be possible for individual users to block entire instances very soon, this way this whole debate will become obsolete. Personally, I can’t wait for it (the debate to become obsolete, not blocking instances necessarily)
Also freedom of speech is between your government and you. Your government can’t censor speech, private companies, individuals, organizations, ect, can censor your speech or censor themselves from hearing it. All rights are only between an individual and their government.
The private property rights that give private companies the ability to censor your speech are created and inforced by the government in the first place, so functionally it’s not different. A handful of massive companies who functionally own the government getting to police what is acceptable speech is not functionally different from the government doing it directly.
Oh absolutely, taken in a greater context which I totally neglected to say that’s absolutely true.
All rights are only between an individual and their government
Different rights have different scopes. Some rights, like the right to live, are between everyone. Some others, like the right to receive a purchased product, are only between buyer and seller. Freedom of speech “just happens” to be between individual and government, in countries where it’s even a right.
The blocking instances thing won’t necessarily solve this problem.
You might be able to block posts from an instance but not comments or votes.
Blocking votes is not a concern, but it’s the comment toxicity that is (in my opinion) making this place lose something very special.
IDK, I think brigading / vote manipulation has more of an impact than most realise.
I just block users or communities if they become problematic. I enjoy being exposed to different opinions but I’m not interested in childish BS or low effort, intentionally contrarian posts
