• Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    Yes, I understand that Marx and Engels did not have realistic political ideals and that every attempt to implement their ideology has diverged from their utopian vision into authoritarianism when reality hits that ideology. That’s the point.

    • Graylitic@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      Marx and Engels were anti-Utopians, unless you want to redefine the word.

    • epicspongee [they/them or he/him]@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Yes, I understand that Marx and Engels did not have realistic political ideals

      Have you read any of Marx? I’m not an ML but if you even glance at Capital you can tell that Marx’s whole schtick was using science to come up with realistic political ideals.

    • Veraxus@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      I see you moved the goal post to a different field.

      If you want to criticize the specifics of Marx/Engels proposals, that is very different than - whether by ignorance or malice - outright lying about them.

        • Veraxus@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I didn’t say anything about Marx or Engels. I talked about communism.

          Oh dear. 🤦🏽

            • Veraxus@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              Ok, let me spell this out…

              1. Marx and Engels created the concept of Communism. They carefully defined it.

              2. No nation in the history of the world has come close to meeting the criteria/definition of Communism.

              3. You cannot pick a Communist nation because not one has ever existed. Literally. By definition.

              A dictator who lies about their dictatorship is still a dictator, just as a wolf in sheep’s clothing is still a wolf.

              • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

                Since communism has proven to be impossible to implement and every attempt has resulted in brutal authoritarian regimes, we can either say communism is an incoherent mess of a utopian ideology which can’t exist, or an ideology that de facto endorses brutal authoritarianism. Dealer’s choice

                • Veraxus@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Other than not understanding how logical fallacies work, you’ve almost got it. Keep at it and I’m sure you’ll get there, eventually.

                  • Cleverdawny@lemm.ee
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    And there’s the smug arrogance

                    “That’s not real communism! Nothing is real communism!” Hahahahahahaha